Money Reform Think Tank: Join in the Debate!

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” --Buckminster Fuller

Most legislation is formed in advance by “think tanks” funded by special interests, but nobody funds experts to think about how to reform the money system itself.   Now, however, we have the Internet, where we can banter ideas about in “virtual” think tanks without funding.  Getting anyone to pay attention, of course, is another matter; but before we even get to that stage, we need to agree on a plan.  I’ve gotten a great deal of feedback on this subject by email, so am opening it up to blog comments.  What should our money system look like and how should it work? Give your feedback here.  Comments on the book “Web of Debt” and articles are also welcome!

Note: This page has gotten a bit long and unwieldy.  Please keep entries short and to the point!  Better still, please continue the debates using our new forum.

1,960 Responses

  1. I agree with what the “Man from Down-Under” writes about the “Web of Debt” He is one of those people with an instinctive capacity for “judgement”. Unfortunately a similar capacity for “judgement” does not appear to move our “leaders” in the US or around the world. See my book entitled “The Demon Money” available in Amazon Kindle..

    • Your book is excellent. Thanks, James!

    • As long as bankers control the creation of “money”, as a debt to the society, there is only one way we can go.
      DOWN!
      The fundamental principles of DEBIT banking are the cause of all the economic grief, as we can never repay a debt for which there is actually no money with which to pay it.
      I read many comments here about what people suggest could be done to rectify the horrific catastrophe now galloping toward us, but, sadly, there are few who have recognized that it is the actual economic system which is wrong.
      We have money created by profit making organizations with share holders, therefore those immoral groups, the bankers, are intent solely on how much they can get their grubby little hands on at the average citizens cost.
      The debit banking system is an ultimate expression of corrupt, immoral, criminal behaviour, as the recent bank bail outs clearly show, and yet the governments, (supposedly there to protect the people,) and the politicians crawl, like mangy dogs, pawning at the feet of these thieves who have illegally claimed ownership of OUR money. But, as this is now the most apathetic age ever to debase our planet, who cares. She’ll be right mate, someone else will fix it.
      It is only the citizens, you and I, who can demand change.
      Will we? Bet no one does, that takes integrity and balls, something sadly lacking amongst our political leaders and social hierarchies.

      • Money as we know it (as a physical object) has been having these consequences for thousands of years. (Read any history of any nation for any time period.) For a different perspective and a unique solution see http://www.nopom.info/ .

      • Great !!! Finally some one who understands what the problem is. Unfortunately about 75% or more of the puplulation in the world have no clue what so ever about whats going on in the financial world. Todays financial structural problems around in the world and the adherent unemployment of more than 60 million people USA and Europe) are caused by the International bankers, and the FED included. Close down the FED and get the Federal Governments to control all the money and get the money backed by tangeble things, not by the blue sky. It is a matter of quick action now before the world will run into severe problems, usually called “war”.

        • Tying money to “tangible” things is a step back into the 19th (or earlier) Century. Money has evolved from measure of a scarce commodity to an information system, which reflects 21st Century reality. There is no longer scarcity when it comes to providing physical and security needs.Saying there is not enough money is like saying there aren’t enough zeros to put into a computer.

    • Where we went wrong and how to fix it.
      FREE, yes no money required. Download this book :
      “The Role of Money” by Frederick Soddy (written in 1926, 1931)
      http://archive.org/details/roleofmoney032861mbp

      Then read a fools interpretation:
      http://bit.ly/MlQWNs

      But always, ” ***** “Believe nothing merely because you have been told it…But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis,you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit,the welfare of all beings – that doctrine believe and cling to,and take it as your guide.”- Buddha[Gautama Siddharta] (563 – 483 BC), Hindu Prince, founder of Buddhism.

  2. Absent in the comments is that money has become a global phenomenon. Full service commercial banks operate globally. They do not just enable foreign trade. Their counterparty transactions locked up the system when confidence in ultimate repayment failed, as in 2008. That could easily happen again; might be very likely. Breaking up banks might not stop this. Smaller institutions caught in such a network would lock up the same way.

    Good question is the extent to which the Fed can really control the money supply in a global system. Global banks can draw on the monetary systems of multiple central banks. They may even be able to “manufacture new money” through global trading mechanisms.

    Most of our discussions, and economic theories, presume central banks controlling money supply, interest rates, and bank reserves for separate closed system economies, but if that is less and less true, then what?

    Doc Hall
    Hondo, Texas

  3. “Money Reform Think Tank: Join in the Debate!

    WEB OF DEBT BLOG” really enables me contemplate a somewhat extra.
    I personally admired each and every individual portion of this post.
    Thanks for your time -Lynwood

  4. I think rehashing old ideas is a good thing, but I don’t think we are going back far enough in history.

    Andrew Jackson became president in 1828. He was a general and he led the Battle of New Orleans during the war of 1812. Jackson was determined to end the power of the central bankers over the United States.

    In 1832, Andrew Jackson’s re-election slogan was “JACKSON and NO BANK!” An early renewal bill for the Bank was passed early. Jackson vetoed the bill and made a speech concerning this event. In January 1835, Jackson paid off the entire national debt. This is the only time in U.S. history that this has been accomplished. He was the only president to do this.

    The USA enters the period known and the “Free Banking Era”. The only banks in the U.S. were those chartered by the states. The Federal Government neither chartered banks nor regulated the existing state banks. The Free Banking Era was during the years of 1837 to 1862. The Supreme Court ruled Briscoe vs. Bank of Kentucky that state banks and the notes they issued were constitutional.

    President Abraham Lincoln needed money for the war and went with his Secretary of the Treasury Solomon P. Chase, to get loans. The banks in New York offered the Union loans with a 24 to 36% interest. Lincoln refused. An old friend of Lincoln’s, Colonel Dick Taylor of Chicago was put in charge of solving the problem of how to finance the war. His solution is recorded as this.

    “Just get Congress to pass a bill authorizing the printing of full legal tender treasury notes… and pay your soldiers with them and go ahead and win your war with them also.”

    So Lincoln pushed through the Legal Tender Act of 1862. Under that act, the U.S. government printed debt free money. This debt-free money was known as “Greenbacks” because of the green ink on the back that was used. The US printed $450 Million dollars in interest-free “Green-backs” from the period of 1862 to 1864.

    The National Banking Acts of 1863 and 1864 were two United States federal banking acts that established a system of national banks for banks, and created the United States National Banking System. They encouraged development of a national currency backed by bank holdings of U.S. Treasury securities and established the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency as part of the United States Department of the Treasury and authorized the Comptroller to examine and regulate nationally chartered banks. The legacy of the Act is its impact on the national banking system as it stands today and its support of a uniform U.S. banking policy.

    The Federal Reserve has taken over in 1913. and now the nations money is controlled by private bankers. In the last 100 years gold has played a different role in regards to it’s relation to the Federal Reserves monetary policy.

    According to history the best solution in fixing the nations monetary policy seems to be taking the Federal Reserve away and returning the control of money to the government. This needs to be done on a global level before everyone becomes enslaved by these private central banks.

    • Nicely stated, Marcus. You summed it up well. Sovereign governments of sovereign people should not have to borrow their money at interest from private bankers. This has been the case in the USA since 1913, 100 years ago. But private bankers took over the sovereign money in Europe 200 years ago, after Wellington defeated Napoleon at Waterloo. We are well along the road to economic slavery to private and corporate interests now, and I see no end in sight. History buffs might want to read “Tragedy and Hope”, a history of the modern times by Professor Carroll Quigley. It’s on Amazon, or “Google” it.

      • I don’t doubt that what you write about Europe is true Jere, but at least some European governments apparently regained the ability to borrow from their own central banks, only to be forced to borrow from private banks again in the early 70s. I never tire of this little French video about it, it’s so well done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8fDLyXXUxM&feature=player_embedded

    • The Fed did a big good turn when it was first formed in 1913 by establishing and printing “notes” used by banks to show how much money, ie gold, was due the bearer of the note. This was a huge improvement over the bank specific notes that circulated prior to 1913. However, these notes printed by the Treasurer were just that, notes or paper. Then came FDR! He declared the notes were no longer backed by gold, thereby creating our present fiat money system where now the Treasure prints real money and essentially gives it to the private banks. The Fed does pay for the printing cost, currently 9.7 cents for a $100 bill. And yes, our monetary system needs to be changed. The Fed will be 100 years old this year.

      • Charles, absolutely wrong that the Feds did a good turn when they were first formed. They were the cause of the great depression and the manipulation that caused most Americans to lose everything; when there was not reason for the depression to last for any length at all, or even occur. It was all a manipulation. Don’t give the Feds credit for anything. They are all crooks that are only looking out for themselves. The continuation of the fraud needs to be removed from any connection to our money supply. We should not be on a central banking system at all. Look at the countries like Iceland and Hungary. When you remove them from power (CB); and charge those who have created crimes against your people; things change for the better. Their economies are growing and creating true wealth for their countries.

    • Excellent Historical Breakdown. I think the founding forefathers would be horrid to see what came to be in today’s Wall Street runned globalized bank owned economy. The idea of governments controlling its own money is the essence of American sovereignty. We’ve lost it to a globalized marketplace. The creation of state banks as in the bank of North Dakota for all 50 states would be a great first step. Creating separated federal greenback currencies for all of those 50 states would be another great step…

      Legally, this all very doable is it not? Creating a state bank is nothing more than creating a charter correct? As long as you can get the backing of the local governments, there is no reason to think that there would not be a way to get the ball rolling… Comments on this idea?

      So how far removed would it be to create a new currency online instead of in paper form for a state bank… Banking right now is basically managing accounts on computers is it not? What is the next step?

      • Sort of Nationalising the money supply and taking it away from Private banks, A good thing in my view, it might get things done and money will then be used to do a job rather than an being end in itself. There would have to be proper oversight but it could be done. Any takers?

  5. Everybody who posted on this article has made excellent and spot on observations. I would simply add that our world could be a virtual paradise if we did have things like nationalized banks, and something that a lot of people aren’t aware of, and that is free energy. Back at the turn of the century Nikolas Tesla invented and constructed Wardenclyffe Tower in Shoreham, Long Island. It was to function as a telecommunications facility and broadcast electrical power. However J.P. Morgan, who financed the project pulled the funding when he and others discovered that this would kill the goose that laid the golden eggs, and probably ruin their plans for control. I suppose you can imagine a world with unlimited energy. No more auto gas bill. No more electric bill. The cost of goods and service would be a lot cheaper since there would be no energy cost. We could even desalinate water at a very high rate and solve our water problems around the world. The only thing left to do would be to equitably share our natural resources. However; here’s the rub. I think while everybody makes a great point, to speak about changing the system is really beating a dead horse. On our current perceived course there is no way anybody is going to change things. The problem is just too intrenched. There is no way, even if through revolution ,would we be able to rid ourselves of the problem of the “shadow elite”. I’m afraid our fate is in the hands of the Almighty if you are a believer, if not, then I suppose things like what is written on the Georgia Guide Stones is what you have to look forward to, and a complete totalitarian society, the likes of which we have never seen before.

  6. I actually found this specific blog , “Money Reform Think
    Tank: Join in the Debate! | WEB OF DEBT BLOG” lehelmakara.
    com , really entertaining and the post was indeed a very good read.
    Thanks for the post,Darren

  7. Reading your book now and it’s amazing but I’ve been following some links that are amazing. We know John Wilkes Booth assassinated Lincoln and he was conferacy sympathizer and the Confederacy was supported by the Bank of England.
    We know Richard Lawrence tried to assassinate Andrew Jackson. Now Lawrence was crazy but his main objection to Jackson was about his not chartering the national bank. Jackson also suspected a former friend and supporter, Senator George Poindexter of Mississippi, who had used Lawrence to do some house painting a few months earlier. In the great national controversy of that period, the rechartering of the national bank, Poindexter supported the rechartering of the bank, a position that again placed him in opposition to President Jackson.
    Lawrence’s interrogation revealed that he got his ideas from attending congressional debates, newspapers and talk among the people. Clay spoke before packed galleries in the Senate, lamenting Jackson’s imperial ways, “…collapse will soon come on and we shall die- ignobly die- base, mean and abject slaves, the scorn and contempt of mankind…” Equally dire, House Democrat Samuel Beardsley said, “…perish credit, perish commerce…give us a broken, a deranged, and a worthless currency, rather than the ignoble and corrupting tyranny of an irresponsible corporation.”

    Those banks just keep popping up.

  8. Not only most people but unfortunately the very politicians who pretend to understand it as well. Plus the money people who understand only their part of it in order to exercise power without responsibility.

    • I was looking for your comment money is not call medium ifvexchangevfor no reason to put on my facebook page

  9. An Alternative to Capitalism (since we cannot legislate morality)

    Several decades ago, Margaret Thatcher claimed: “There is no alternative”. She was referring to capitalism. Today, this negative attitude still persists.

    I would like to offer an alternative to capitalism for the American people to consider. Please click on the following link. It will take you to my essay titled: “Home of the Brave?” which was published by the Athenaeum Library of Philosophy:

    http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/steinsvold.htm

    John Steinsvold

    “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”
    ~ Albert Einstein

    • Sounds okay, but “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result” often doesn’t apply. I’ve tried it– sometimes you just keep doing the same thing and you do get different results. “If you throw enough spaghetti against the wall some of it is bound to stick,” and “never give up!” are also good aphorisms.

  10. Before we propose an alternative to the current financial system we need to define what we mean by the word “money”. Any takers? I might start the ball rolling by comparing “money” to “theatre tickets”. If you have 500 seats you need to have 500 tickets – the number of tickets needs to based on the number of seats – no intrinsic value but important in their representation – too few will send the theatre broke – too many they’ll be fighting over seats!

    • you might like this. http://bibocurrency.com/images/Presentation%2011%20junio%202013%20final%20eng.htm and more generally http://www.bibocurrency.com, and http://bibocurrency.com/index.php/store/14-english-root/101-book-page (here you can request a free pdf copy by emailing info@bibocurrency.com.

      More generally, you can review the whole web: http://www.bibocurrency.com.

      Money is only an annotation of value and its current definition is nonsensical.

      • Much appreciated, Marc – thank you for your reply. I like the way you have put it all together in a tutorial/presentation form – currently going through it. I have recently been thinking that there desperately needs to be education on the money question so it is very timely that you have sent me this info. Education needs to be targeted at all age groups – from kindie to adult – any educators out there? – the objective being to build a strong base over time from which support can be drawn should a strong leader emerge. Perhaps (with respect to the leaders of the past) this why others have failed.

        • You are welcome Mal, please pass the link along the real root of the problem is that everyone is possessed by a false paradigm of money based on a definition of money that confuses logical functions with physical properties. I believe that both bankers and the public at large are victims of this false paradigm both trying to make it in an impossible game that can only fail because it is based on impossible beliefs. No matter how much you try to optimise management of the flying-pig farm, pig flight will never improve ;-)

    • The “theater ticket” analogy seems okay for a start in that it illustrates the key point that not making enough of it is silly as it is at basis fiat. A main weakness I see off hand is that such theater tickets are not fungible. The fed and banks create credit money with which they can buy anything and loan at interest. Such power does not belong in private hands. I’m not much of a fan of the “define this term” approach. Better, I think, is to go with Wittgenstein and look at how the word is used in the real world. Ellen Brown’s new book The Public Bank Solution shows that much of the world is already making use of a better alternative, leaving arguments about theory largely moot.

      • Definition is everything without clear definitions there can be no contract of value. And theater tickets are fungible in that one is equivalent to another of the same quality and type. Also, the relevance of the discussion on whether banking should be private or public is moot until you have decided what money is and hence what functions so called “banking” are to perform. There is no doubt that representing value in the market is a fundamental right. The public function should be limited to that of defining and enforcing open standards in value representation but not as a control of access and expression of value, that is up to the people not any private or public “authority”.

        • disagree

      • Thank you for your reply, ErnieM. I think it is a valid point that you made to consider how the word “money” is used in the world at large . It could be of value in identifying peoples’ assumptions as to the nature of money and provide insight as to where education needs to be targeted…

        • We must be careful not to become too philosophical about money. It’s basis is in fact very simple if Occam’s Razor is wielded. Money is not called a medium of exchange for no reason. It is in fact a measure of the amount of work we all do for each other. But there is nothing that humanity does better than to complicate things beyond sense and reason- then refuse to learn by mistakes but to carry on complicating the issue by having the system run by “professionals” who base their living on this confused mess.
          Any change will have to deal with these “professionals” who ,of course have the ear of the politicians and the media. We need to bypass these people, come up with a viable alternative and splash it over the internet and make everyone think.

          • Yes, I agree – use the KISS principle in all things. People do sometimes tend to complicate things unnecessarily – when I worked in the professional world I found this happened all the time for two reasons: 1) to provide a smoke-screen to protect someone’s turf 2) because the person didn’t really know enough about the subject. I always found the ones that REALLY knew their stuff to be humble, open and able to give an explanation that even I could understand!

            And yes, professionals (and politicians and the business world) will have to be dealt with but hopefully if we approach this bottom up they will be no match for the tsunami heading their way!

            • > Money is not called a medium of exchange for no reason. It is in fact a measure of the amount of work we all do for each other >

              Wish This definition preceded every use of the word m o n e y

  11. Money is not a thing of nature but of law. Money is what government says it is. Legal tender is what the law says must be accepted as payment of both public and private debt. Since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the Affordable Health Care law suit affirming that Congress only has the power to regulate commerce but it does not have the power to compel it, only public, or government issued currency can be legal tender.

    The Federal Reserve Law specifies the order of payment of revenue as follows: first, operating expenses of the system; second, a 6% return on stock; and third, the U.S. Treasury. Since no government agency has stock holders, the Federal Reserve System is a privately owned, for-profit syndicate. So, its currency cannot be legal tender under the U.S. Constitution.

  12. I want to post a direct link to this quote received in email from webofdebt this am. I can’t find it when I click the blog.

    Nulego: “Money is not called a medium of exchange for no reason. It is in fact a measure of the amount of work we all do for each other”

    • Hello peggydobbins
      My e mail address is bjjptucker@yahoo.co.uk

  13. Money can be a unit of measure but currently is not because it is confused with being a commodity of variable value. Money is not a physical medium nor is it a physical store of value, those designations are questionable allegories derived solely from the presumption that money is an effective measure. But if money were a measure those allegories would cease to hold and money would cease being our divine carrot.

    We tolerate the current definition of money via a stack of false assumptions that we never question because we are too busy dealing with the headaches caused by this insane definition. We can and must begin our critique of money from general logical and mathematical axioms, because if we start by assuming the current ones from economics and finance, we will continue to be led down the garden path.

    If the truth be known, conventional economic and finance theory is of zero value, other than serving as PSYOP it is a mesh of absurd circular logic that only appears reasonable precisely because we unwittingly assume its founding axioms unquestionably. But if you look at this presentation here: http://bibocurrency.com/images/Presentation%2011%20junio%202013%20final%20eng.htm, it should become evident how the current operative definition of money, can not serve as a rational foundation for anything.

    There in lies the solution to the current crisis, if money is not a rational thing then no contract in good consciousness can be executed on its basis. We must stop the killer machine and found our future on a rational definition of money and its function where money serves a needed function see this: http://bibocurrency.com/index.php/store/14-english-root/101-book-page

  14. When the Fed first went into business following enactment of the law in 1913, the government provided a very useful service by printing notes for the banks providing banknote uniformity across the land. But these notes were just paper showing how much money the bank owed the bearer. That was a great improvement from before the Fed when each bank printed their own notes. But then, in the early 1930s, in the early years of the great depression, a strange thing happened and no one noticed. FDR did away with the gold backing but the government still printed the notes which were now fiat money, and gave them to banks as they do right up to this day. Many complained about loss of gold backing but no one seemed to acknowledge or complain about the government printing and giving money to the banks, the flip side of the loss of the gold backing issue. And the government does not really give it to the banks. The banks pay for the cost of printing, currently 9.7 cents for a 100 dollar bill.

  15. I am a huge fan of Ellen’s and think her book should be required reading for all. How does everyone feel about what to do concerning the forces that will argue against it? Has Ellen or the publishers been threatened or harassed in any way?

  16. The core incentive boosting credit supply without an incentive for avoiding credit risk was unvaile precisely. But the alternative has been still an ordinary banking scheme. All the refinancing transactions undelying REPO and derivates and all the “too big to fail” financial corporations has been lurking predators for public banking institutions and their cients’ money. A “still money” concept as a unique and all-national banking system is much better covering all the desired effects without risky coexistence with money-suckers and not harming anyone either involved or not.

  17. Thanks Victor.
    It is staggering, the economic ignorance which pervades our political systems, and the unwillingness of media to present alternate ideas to rectify social problems.
    We are witnessing the introduction of a global SOCIALIST state, and the United Soviet State of America is the leader in economic dictatorship.
    The Commonwealth bank, in Australia, just announced a profit of 7,000, million dollars, $7,000,000,000,000 profit for the last year, which is a pretty good margin, and that was at we, the citizen’s expense, none other.
    Why then do we not nationalize the banks and direct those phenomenal profits back into the community they stole it from?
    It is definitely a more profitable business than mining, illegal drug sales, (who launder their prophets through banks,) I.T., and surely American and European banks have similar profit margins.
    The only resolution is to nationalize banks, support Ellen’s concept of local, not for profit banks, owned by the community, and giving the community access to THEIR money at no cost through interest.
    The Commonwealth bank, of Australia, was originally established as the “PEOPLE’S BANK”, and was not allowed, according to their constitution, to charge more than 1 and one half percent interest, which was purely to cover costs.
    Then we will witness an incredible growth in industry, though it essential we all move away from manufacturing industries toward food and continuously renewable commodity industries, and let every citizen benefit from a truly constructive, progressive financial system.

  18. Victor Chen, when you say “get rid of the Fed”, I wonder to whom your imperative is directed. Certainly I can’t do it, so it must not be me. That is, the problem with all such engines (as they said a few hundred years ago) as yours is that, while the recommendation is eminently sensible, it is so far removed from reality – which is that the federal government has no desire to implement it, nor does anyone else in the financial elite – that you’re absolutely lacking a mechanism with which to realize your plan, or a federal government which could be relied on to put it into effect toward the ends you seek. What are you going to do about that?

  19. Consider the Global Resource Bank model.

  20. Hi all, every living organism grows to the point where it cannot sustain itself any longer, it just withers and dies & the next generation is born. Our managerial system is way too large to be of any use to the 98% of good honest people of this amazing planet. We all know that the only way is to be brave, chuck out the mobile, google, and do not patronise the system that serves only to enslave us. The only way forward is small and true, serve each other in smaller communities, may our problems be solved by common sensed human beings living together in smaller communities. Our elderly & sick can be taken care of, while the fit help each other to have stress free lives full of worth. We can all at least think of designing our own lives, we don,t have a contract to be tied to the hidden elite ones, do we ? Nothing will happen on the grand scale without the input from these hidden agendas. Small communities will prosper, ( not financially ) over time, spiritually humans will grow, Get out the big cities ! these are breeding grounds and will eventually be our prisons, block the roads, the rails, add a few drones and there we have it. We can all think smaller if we really try, eventually a lot of small groups free from jealous thought, will be impossible to control. Kind regards Dave Bates

  21. I note that some states are seriously considering state banks. I also note that the State of New York wants to look like they are considering it, while holding it in a committee for two years!
    Well, New York probably doesn’t know much about banking….. Yeah, that must be it

  22. DG, I agree with 99.9% of what you say. We are on the same page.

  23. Capital punishment! For those deliberately violateting the public good. Reguardless of social stature.

  24. In reference to Toto from “The Wizard of Oz”: There is a Latin phrase “non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro” which translates to English as “liberty is not well sold for all the gold.”

    • Today on NPR there was a piece casting doubt on the idea that the Wizard of Oz is a monetary allegory (http://www.studio360.org/series/american-icons/) It seemed like a poorly done hit piece to me, with inaccuracies such as that the populists wanted silver and gold (precious metals) so that they could be prosperous, suggesting at the end that it is really about homosexuality.

  25. After I initially left a comment I seem to have clicked the -Notify me when new comments are added- checkbox and from now on every time a comment is added I recieve 4 emails with the same comment. Perhaps there is an easy method you are able to remove me from that service? Appreciate it!

  26. We are Followers of the Devil Worshipers that we put in office. The easiest way to create jobs and solve most of the problems of the world, is to end the Federal Reserve and confiscate all the property and money the owners have stolen in the past one hundred years, which will equal, at lease 100 Trillion Dollars. Than we can fix all the bridges, roads, clean water, FDA, science, make Banks State Owed, and many more things. A person robs a few slices of Bread to feed his family and goes to jail. A family and their friends that have stolen our Justice, Homes, Education, Health, Money, Future, and kills people, and we allow it to happen. We Americans like sheep just follow, allowing our Politicians to be controlled by these Thieves. Jesus Christ tried to put an end to them 2000 years ago when he Turned Over the Tables of the Money Exchangers, and we say we are followers of Christ when we are not. We are Followers of the Devil Worshipers that we put in office. I lived in California many years ago as a young man and thought, people in California were so much more knowledgeable and advanced than people in other parts of the country. Now I am not so sure because this woman knows what she is talking about and I don’t think she will be voted in. Just look at Ron Paul results in California,

  27. “At this point, ‘people’ will turn to ideas that are lying around. It is, therefore, imperative to have as many good ideas lying around as possible, else some of the ‘bad old ideas’ will be re-hashed and re-used.”

    I certainly agree, but think the more important point is that most “people” (voting citizens) can’t now tell a good idea from a bad idea, and the “bad old ideas” are being promoted by the bad old guys for the same old bad reasons.

    So I doubt there is anything that can stop these bad old ideas from being re-hashed or re-used. We already see this happening with the gold-standard push from the Austrians, Libertarians, Ron Paul and the Ayne Rand-ians (Objectivists).

    Eventually, hopefully, civilization will “get it right” through trial and error. Discussions and debates like this once can only help the motivate answer-seekers sort it all out, IMO.

    But first, people have to learn that democracy demands participation. It is not a spectator sport. It cannot be left for others to do, or decide upon. Democracy is only as good as its citizens and the leaders they elect/select. Right now that is not very good.

    (For some unknown reason this is one of a few comments that will not correctly format according to its date, and remains mixed in with other comments made later. It’s beyond my attempts to fix. Sorry)

  28. My wife, the Milwaukee Socialist, thinks serving as a representative in Congress should be like jury duty.

  29. Yes, we need to not be rehashing the same old crud that the socialist media and the education systems continually push, though, we need also consider that some of th old ideas are actually far more moral, realistic and viable than the imbecility and repertitious rubbish being regurgitated by those who claim to be experts.
    Yes, the community have been educated into amazing levels of imbecility and ignorance, where knowledge no longer means applicable sane fact processing, and the majority have been deprived of our most fundamental right, to be taught HOW TO THINK.
    It is far easier for governments, and their bosses, the bankers, to control the mindless morons, the drug depressed imbeciles, through destruction of the individual’s ability to reason, to analyze and make independent decisions.
    What you are suggesting, that one day we will somehow magically get it right is another media or drug induced fantasy, my friend, and we are headed up pooh alley at full speed ahead.

  30. Sorry I haven’t had time to comment on excellent comments by Leibniz and Utopian. Soon, and I would enjoy having lunch or a face to face conversation with either if or when they get around to the Kansas City area.

  31. I like the way she thinks. :-) On Jan 31, I wrote above that “”democracy demands participation. … It is not a spectator sport.” Although I am a strong supporter of free markets and free enterprise, I also firmly believe we must rethink what we consider the realms of private and public ownership and control of certain kinds of property. As in “natural resources” kinds of “property”, and that includes land, sea, water, air, and all other kinds of natural resources that man has had nothing to do with creating.

    It;s a huge subject, and I regard Henry George’s books the best thinking available on the subject. In particular, I recommend “Progress and Poverty”. Reading and comprehending this one book will do more to open the eyes of John Q Public about the real reasons we have so much poverty in the midst of so much wealth, or so-called “progress”. It’s the best education on economics one can get from one book. Ellen’s Web of Debt is the best education one can get on “money”, IMO.

    Cheers,

  32. I think that’s a great idea. I wonder how it would be structured?

  33. Jere,
    it’s interesting your being from K.C. It seems that U of MO K.C. is one of the few universities in the U.S. that is not completely dominated by neoliberal ideology. If I were to study economics academically MO K.C. is one of the few places I would consider. L. Randall Wray, I believe, is there, Michael Hudson, who wrote the suberb book Superimperialism is still affiltiated with them. Mason Gaffney taught there at one time, although he has been at Cal Riverside for at least 20 years. Are you familiar with Gaffney? He was inspired to study economics after reading Progress and Poverty in high school. He is a very good writer and everything he writes is suffused with the spirit of George. Gaffney is in his 80′s now but he has a nice website and is still writing, last I checked. I believe public collection of land and resource rent is the perfect complement for the kind of monetary reform that Ellen Brown and Stephen Zarlenga advocate. Despite what the screamers (inflation! inflation!) say, a public money supply of sufficient liberality need not be inflationary if any excesses were soaked up as rent. Another way to limit inflation would be effective allocation to productive uses. I think George preferred rent collection because he basically didn’t approve of top down control. Anyway, I enjoyed reading some of the comments of this discussion and I loved Ellen’s book. Check out Gaffney some if you get a chance.
    Peace

  34. Have you thought about what the expressions “free market” and “free enterprise” really mean? “Free” in this context means “unregulated”. It’s a buzzword that makes everyone say Oh yes! because if you aren’t in favor of “freedom” there must be something wrong with you and you’ll be metaphorically lynched. Perhaps physically as well, although not here, obviously, which is why I don’t hesitate to say I’m decidedly against such an aberration.

    If you’re in favor of a free market, then you can’t possibly object when all the wealth ends up in the hands of a few thousand people and the other seven billion live in leaky corrugated tin shacks eating potatoes and slaving for the privileged few. That’s “freedom”. But instead of that delusion, how about Limits on Wealth? It’s impossible of course because it’s the wealthy who make all the laws, and they’re in favor of the “free market” and won’t even tolerate the suggestion that they should be taxed (and in the logic of the “free market” why should they be? they’re the winners of the rigged and filthy game and the poor and middle class are the losers, let them pay), but it’s something to keep in mind in the unlikely event that sanity should prevail over lunatic greed.

  35. Wilvick.
    Welcome to the “think tank”, and the keen observations. It’s more or less a coincidence that I moved to KC about 4 years ago. to be close to the grandkids. I’ve long been a fan of Michael Hudson of UMKC, and also of Michael Black. I’ve heard others say good things about Gaffney, but I haven’t read him yet. UMKC, for some reason, seems to have a solid stream to brilliant and honest economists. My “main man” in economics is Henry George. He discovered the roots of poverty in the midst of prosperity and abundance: Land. Resources and rents enrich those that own the land and those abundant resources upon which all wealth depends.

    If you have read Stephen Zarlenga, Ellen Brown, George, Wray, Gaffney, and have a grasp on their thinking then you are one in a hundred thousand that really understands what is going on in our world, and the urgency of either fixing it, or laying plans to rebuild something better when it all falls apart.

    I would also highly recommend others that I have listed on my own website, http://wealthmoney.wordpress.com – Historian Prof. Carroll Quigley, Nobel winner Frederick Soddy, and video and filmmakers Bill Still, Paul Grignon, (they have REAL solutions) and perhaps most notably for up-to-date greatness, David C Korten. I could think of dozens more, but out of time. I’ll try to post some good links soon.

    Best wishes,

  36. John I think you will enjoy reading this article . its informative side to the reason why Nixon de-linked the dollar from the precious metals standard has a Fundamental point of view thats claimed to still be active in todays ways of governance ; http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7735

    And the plan in this Link , http://www.rususa.com/news/news.asp-nid-33393-catid-4 , makes sense especially when you consider that BRIC and OPEC cartels that Now control the majority of all Raw material Resources between their alliances have made the FEDERAL Reserve obsolete in their status as Representative of the Dollar as the international Trade currency and are publicly speaking out for its rejection of the trade currency because they hold all the intrinsic value that backs a Currency and therefore are saying they really do not want to hold dollars because its now just a Piece of paper with nothing to back it up intrinsically ; http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rare-earths-are-vital-and-china-owns-them-all-2009-09-24?link=kiosk

  37. Ooohhhh, that got some interesting response.
    Did it expose some of the reality we have allowed ourselves to get ambushed into?
    We can’t blame anyone but ourselves for allowing this economic catastrophe to manifest, and, no offense meant.
    It is because the majority of the populace have no real idea of what is going on around them, in the economic and political arenas, having been brain washed by the media, the education system into absolute apathy.
    Don’t like the comments, sorry, but maybe it is time, if there is any hope of reversing our rush into economic slavery, to stand up and face the truth.
    We are being railroaded into financial penury, subservience, in and through a totally immoral, imploding debit banking system, which is totally supported by our corrupt governments.
    Our communities are addicted to mind destroying drugs, by the multinational corporations, who control the sale of alcohol, nicotine, plus Big Pharm’s poisonous range
    Our communities are brain deadened through the mindless ‘Days of Our Lives’ drivel emanating from our politicians, the media and the advertising conglomerates.
    That’s how this bloke sees it, if you don’t, no sweat, this is a FREE society, isn’t it?

  38. Trouble is our civilization teaches us WHAT to think not HOW to think. Basically our children are brainwashed from birth onwards in this way’ Think of the number of religions that are absolutely dependant on telling us what to think. Not only religions of course, political attitudes are up there as well along with many other systems we take for granted particularly money and even science.

  39. True comment, though we need seperate religion, a blinding covering, from what the Bible teaches.

    Man made religion is of the devil, as it replaces God’s simple, effective program with man’s complicicated, draconian,dictatorial and destructivly devised plan for global subjugation of the populace through, amongst other means, economic slavery.

    Our debit banking system is immoral, self destructive, and straight out of hell.

    Whether one believes in God, or Mary Popons, it surely is only morons who cannot see how our economic system is irreversibly crumbling.

    You watch how Foundation X, Big Mother, the Vatican, (one and the same) will become the longed for ‘saviour of the world’, with their offer to rescue us from the economic catastrophe they have manufactured, through their demonic banking system.

    Usury is forbidden in the Old Testament, Ex.22:25; Lev.25:36,37; Deut.23:19; and usury is exactly what is being committed against the community, through the banking system we now are subjugated to.

    Interest cannot be paid, as it is never created when the original capital is entered as a debit onto the bankers books,

    There is no way interest money can be provided, produced by the community, as it is only the bankers allowed to ‘create’ money, so they MUST finish up owning everything, including your soul.

    No governments have the balls to prosecute the banks for their blatant thefts, which surely exposes a collusion between them, neither has the mass media the courage to publicize the reality of how the populace is being robbed blind.

    Back to square one, if we don’t like the system, if we can see the system is corrupt, maybe the citizens should be demanding a total reformation of the banking system, the return of the creation of credit to a commodity based valuation, controlled by the community, and the nationalization of ALL banks.

    The Public Banking (publicly owned and controlled banks) concepts, currently functioning in some states, is a viable tool to change things, but the only true solution is to overcome man’s greed for power and control, for financial wealth, and to implement a banking system which is owned by the communities, and is a ‘not for profit’ publicly owned service.

    Financial freedom, wealth for the masses, will only be achieved by destroying the current immoral, decadent system and implementing a program where money is created as a community credit.

    This, contrary to all economists protest, is NOT inflationary, as the wealth is absorbed into the community, who then own the assets the community created funds supply.
    There are no interest payments to make, for access to the capital required to build their roads, hospitals, schools, homes, etc.,
    Then we would see a community free from an ever increasing financial burden, controlled by the interest demons, pushing them into emotional and financial stress.

    No interest loans, no trauma and an ever upward trending economy.

    Problem fixed,

  40. If Currency is just a Piece of Paper with nothing to back it up, then how is it that China, which has fiat money has built up its industry and infrastructure in such a short amount of time?
    Fiat money is not a paper tiger.

    If we go off oil, we will need to replace oil with other energy sources,
    wind, wave, solar, nuclear, natural gas (we have lots still), coal (processed). As long as we can be productive with our energy sources
    our dollars will retain their value.

  41. Fiat money is only as good as the confidence that people have in it. That confidence cycles though out history as do the seasons. Debt based money has a limited lifespan since debt is required to create it. Thus, as interest on this increasing supply of money eats it away, governments manipulate the rate of interest downward with central bank purchases of the sovereign bonds in order to screw bond holders and to limit its own liability (it’s part of the financial repression which governments impose upon its subjects as currencies die). This is why there comes a point where increasing interest rates actually create more hyperinflation due to governments needing to create more fiat to service it to avoid overt default. More money is needed to pay the increasing service of interest on the debt. This all creates a situation of diminishing value of the currency until all confidence is lost. Even the most brutal dictatorships cannot stop the refusal by commerce to accept these depreciating paper tokens.

    If we understand cycles of nature which abound throughout reality and we save yourself much heartache through increased understanding.

  42. Mr. Nolan, I find what you and others here have said very interesting. Many good points on here. Many folks have been conditioned as “Pavlov’s Dog” to accept things the way they have been, and feel defenseless and clueless as to what to do about what is culminating at a rapid rate these days. There are those that are frightened and don’t want to engage in discussions like these at all. They don’t want to believe what is happening. I have been praying. Have you watched Thrivemovement.com on YouTube? Have you ever heard of Agenda21? The global power matrix that is being set up is part of the diabolical New World Order plan to destroy most of us. Just more control added to the mix. People are being lied to about Smart meters. Attorney General is aware of this. They have been receiving complaints. Check out Rense.com. I recently spoke with the man who wrote “Dirty Electricity”. I also spoke with Jerry Day. You will find all that information on YouTube. Biblical prophesies continue to come true. Eight years ago I began getting close to God. Now I experience His supernatual presence. He has even put money in my purse four times supernaturally and I wasn’t even in dire need! That gave me hope and increased my faith. I am not the only one who He made money appear to. It was reported on “It’s Supernatural” by Sid Roth on t.v. Biblically, we are supposed to get involved politically against such injustices being done to us. Folks must make time for it! I need direction. I want to be involved. I feel like I have been alone in this. Like people around where I live don’t want to bother to try to fight this, and say they don’t have the time. What’s coming is far worse than what HItler and his regime did! Nations again competing for world dominance.

  43. You are correct, Leon, that our country, and capitalism itself are founded on the buzzword “freedom”, without any deep thinking about the concept of “freedom” itself. I’ve thought about, and written of, this poorly understood concept since my early years. The truth is that there is simply no such meaningful concept or state of being that is “free” without contextual limits. One is always “free TO do”, or not do something, or “free FROM” something or someone. Without qualification, the word has no meaning. Worse, the vagueness of the word has been used by tyrants, monarchs, and monopolists for countless millenniums. Freedom of thought, action, or response is an inherent, God-given right; however there are always conditions or consequences for our thoughts and actions. These may be the result of inclusion in a group, family. clan or nation, or they may be Divine limits. We are ‘FREE” to murder someone, but there are consequences for doing so.We are free to steal, but there are human or Divine consequences for doing it. There is no one who is trully FREE” to do as s/he wishes without consequence; there are always limits, even on kings and tyrants. Socrates wrote on these things over 2000 years ago.

    So when “I” speak of “free markets” I really mean uncontrolled, unregulated, except to make the playing field as fair and level as possible – as undominated by corporate power and private hoards of wealth as by government strongmen and tyrants.

    But when it comes right down to the bottom line in this giant game of Monopoly we play is “who gets to create the money?”. Right now it is the banks – mainly the Fed and the central banks World Bank, IMF, BIS, etc. I believe it should be the people, or more accurately, their elected governments. It’s a huge topic, and really hard for most people to get their heads wrapped around.

  44. Quote Justaluckyfool (Google or Bing),”What if the Federal Reserve Bank were to mandate: The Federal Reserve Bank is the ONLY source for currency issuance. All bank loans must be 100% capitalized? All loans must be backed 100% by the ‘good faith and credit ‘ of the Monetary Sovereignty.(currency issued by the FRB, be it coin,note,or digital imprint.)” Since this would perhaps cause “systemic failure” since there is not enought real money in existence to cover, included in the mandate would be that banks would be allowed to borrow the amount needed to be solvent at 2% compound interest for 36 years.
    OMG, if $72 trillion was needed that would produce ‘a revenue income’ of $4 trillion per year.
    OMG,eliminate federal income taxes, eliminate FICA, reduce student loans to 0.25% !
    Prepare the people for prosperity.”

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