WEB OF DEBT BLOG

The Efficiencies of the State and the Progress of Public Banking: Daily Bell Interview

18 Responses

1. 

   F. Beard, on January 17, 2011 at 5:53 am said:

   The key to dealing with PM “libertarians” is to point out their hypocrisy if they advocate government sanction for PMs. In that case, they are advocating fiat PMs! Pure hypocrisy.

   No. Government money should be pure fiat but only legal tender for government debts, not private ones. Private money alternatives should be allowed, however, including the primitive PMs.

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     ehswan, on January 17, 2011 at 5:29 pm said:

     I had a finely crafted silver bowl. I had read that silver was a perfect reflector. I deduced that being a perfect reflector I could polish this ever so fine silver bowl until it’s surface disappeared. I got down to spit and finger tips and still could not make the surface of this bowl disappear. The problem being that there were irregularities in the metal. However when I brought this bowl out into the sun I could not look at it as the reflection was blinding!

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2. 

   RickyP, on January 17, 2011 at 1:12 pm said:

   This is one of the most amazing interviews I’ve ever read! Ellen Brown handles all of the trick questions with grace, civility and intelligence. What she needs is to get out of these niche venues and into arenas with a broader audience such as KQED-FM’s Forum or the Commonwealth Club. Those of us who believe that the case she makes for public banking is clear and compelling need to start making serious efforts to call attention to her work in every way we can.

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3. 

   carl veritas, on January 17, 2011 at 1:17 pm said:

   Government doesn’t produce any goods. If private merchants can insist on being paid with a certain type of money, demand for such money will rise at the expense of others. Banks will soon provide deposit and other services for that money. Merchants and individuals will buy just enough government money (as to pay their tax bill) at a deep discount, until it is worthless like Lincolns greenbacks.

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4. 

   Calgacus, on January 17, 2011 at 3:01 pm said:

   Government money should be pure fiat but only legal tender for government debts, not private ones. Private money alternatives should be allowed, however, including the primitive PMs.

   This describes the current system. Legal tender laws are utterly meaningless in modern economies. Private money alternatives are common – frequent flier miles, Ithaca dollars are some of the more amusing – but most of the money in any modern economy is bank credit money. Since taxation is omnipresent and powerful, government money is the most desirable kind of money, the standard by which others are judged.

   @ carl:
   The likelihood of private merchants creating other kinds of money, at which government money circulates at a discount, as in much of the medieval era, is small. It is equivalent to the likelihood of the return of medieval conditions – famines, plagues, wars, looting, anarchy – which is what caused that phenomenon then.

   Ellen could be conceptually clearer. But her efforts on pounding sense out of some of those numb-skulled questions are noble, and perhaps too much immediate clarity would confuse. All money is debt. If it is not debt, it is not money. Government fiat money is a debt from the government to the holder. Currency is zero interest, zero maturity, while bonds are the interest bearing, positive maturity type of government money.

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     F. Beard, on January 17, 2011 at 3:37 pm said:

     All money is debt. If it is not debt, it is not money. Calgacus

     Wrong. Suppose I own a factory free and clear and spend my common stock as money to buy addition assets or labor. Where is the debt? There is none.

     Government fiat money is a debt from the government to the holder. Calgacus

     Also wrong. With debt free money such as US Notes the debt is the taxpayers’ debt to the government. The fiat is a means of paying that debt. Furthermore sovereign governments should never borrow anyway.

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       Obsvr-1, on January 20, 2011 at 7:53 am said:

       #1 If one receives a equity stock certificate for labor then the company is in debt to the holder of the certificate as the equity stock is a claim against the equity of the company. If one wants to purchase something in the real market (e.g. food at safeway) one could not use the equity stock certificate, it would have to be converted into a medium of exchange ‘money’ e.g. USD which in our current monetary system under the FED is debt as every USD is loaned into existence.

       #2 – Our current system is based on a debt based currency, all USD money is loaned into existence. If we moved to a US Money system that is spent into existence e.g. greenbacks or contemporary movement http://www.ami.org then the FED can be abolished and a new sound money system could be deployed.

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         F. Beard, on January 25, 2011 at 5:42 pm said:

         #1 If one receives a equity stock certificate for labor then the company is in debt to the holder of the certificate as the equity stock is a claim against the equity of the company. Obsvr-1

         Wrong. The receiver of the equity stock certificate becomes an instant co-owner of the corporation. There is no debt. In exchange for whatever he sold to the corporation he receives a “share” in the corporation. There is no debt.

         If one wants to purchase something in the real market (e.g. food at safeway) one could not use the equity stock certificate, it would have to be converted into a medium of exchange ‘money’ e.g. USD Obsvr-1

         Not necessarily.

         If we moved to a US Money system that is spent into existence e.g. greenbacks or contemporary movement http://www.ami.org then the FED can be abolished and a new sound money system could be deployed. Obsvr-1

         However, that new money should only be legal tender for debts to government, not private ones.

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     F. Beard, on January 17, 2011 at 3:42 pm said:

     This describes the current system. Legal tender laws are utterly meaningless in modern economies. Private money alternatives are common – frequent flier miles, Ithaca dollars are some of the more amusing – but most of the money in any modern economy is bank credit money. Since taxation is omnipresent and powerful, government money is the most desirable kind of money, the standard by which others are judged. Calgacus

     Current tax policy, including the capital gains tax, make government fiat a de facto legal tender for private debts. That could easily be remedied. In fact, it must be remedied if we are to have true alternatives to government fiat. It can be done.

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       Calgacus, on January 18, 2011 at 11:21 am said:

       As long as the government has and effectively uses the power to tax, its money always has and always will win out as the most desirable in the free competition of currencies, which again, we most certainly have right now in the USA.

       All that legal tender laws say are: the government must accept its own dollars (Big Deal!) and private businesses with existing dollar-denominated debts must accept them at face value to extinguish these debts. (Actually they need not accept them – they just can’t keep dunning you after they have refused your payment.) (Again, Big Deal! – businesses are free to demand other modes of payment before a transaction.)

       In modern economies, all legal tender laws could be immediately repealed, with no effect whatsoever. Scotland and China don’t have them – nobody notices, nobody cares.

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         F. Beard, on January 18, 2011 at 12:10 pm said:

         As long as the government has and effectively uses the power to tax, its money always has and always will win out as the most desirable in the free competition of currencies, which again, we most certainly have right now in the USA. Calgacus

         The gold-bugs seek to harness that “popularity” for gold by making it required for taxes. The reason given is to avoid a “stealth inflation tax”. So my question is how can the stealth inflation tax be banned without such a silly restriction as the mining rate of gold?

         In modern economies, all legal tender laws could be immediately repealed, with no effect whatsoever. Scotland and China don’t have them – nobody notices, nobody cares. Calgacus

         Good. Then no one should object if they are repealed, should they? After that we can abolish the capital gains tax and other laws that allow a stealth inflation tax on potential alternative currencies.
         If the stealth inflation tax is abolished then all tax increases would have to be explicitly approved and the gold-bug objection to fiat money would be vanquished.

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5. 

   carl veritas, on January 17, 2011 at 4:09 pm said:

   Calgasus,

   “Government money is the most desirable form of money”? Only if you remove competition.

   “All money is debt”? Is that what gold coins were.

   The final solution—-Executive Order 6102 confiscated private American gold and surrendered to the Federal Reserve. The following year in 1934, the Gold Reserve Act titled all gold held by the Federal Reserve to the US Treasury.
   The reason was simple. Govt bonds are payable in dollars which were in turn redeemable in gold (bank notes too). This tie to gold hampered FDRs desire to fund his New Deal programs, but it also kept banks in check. Solution: remove the competition then enact legal tender statutes to force acceptance of govt approved money.

   Competition in currency will allow the market to quickly flush out all garbage money, and provide a recourse to the people, an out from tyrants.

   .

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6. 

   carl veritas, on January 18, 2011 at 12:25 pm said:

   Calgasus,

   Executive Order 6102 and Gold Reserve Act are government edicts to remove gold from circulating as money precisely to remove competition.

   Saying we have a free market in currency today is like jailing all members of the opposing party before announcing that we are in fact free to vote for any party.

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   • 

     Calgacus, on January 22, 2011 at 2:41 am said:

     Those orders and acts were repealed in the 70s. Americans can own & trade gold, coin or print their own money with their own face on them, and try to get other people to accept it. We have a perfectly free market in money. No opposing party is in jail.

     US dollars are the money most desired in this free market – because that is what the government demands for taxes.

     And yup, gold coins were (zero-maturity, interest-free) debt of the government, and credits towards their holder. They got their value by the fact they were coins of the US government and could be used to pay US taxes.

     Alfred Mitchell-Innes’ classic 1913 article “What is Money?” analyzed such gold coins this way – Randall Wray calls those articles the two best articles on money in the 20th century. If anything that is an underestimate.

     Commodity money, money whose worth was based on its metallic content, barter economies – these are all things that are mentioned in mainstream – especially goldbug Austrian – economics texts – but never existed anywhere on the face of the earth.

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     • 

       F. Beard, on January 22, 2011 at 4:29 am said:

       We have a perfectly free market in money. Calgacus

       No we don’t because of the capital gains tax and probably the income tax plus government privilege for FRNs including the FDIC.

       For instance, supposed I used common stock for money. Because of the wisdom of the corporation’s management, the value of the common stock money appreciated wrt FRNs. Then I would have to pay a tax on that appreciation. No such tax would apply to FRNs.

       Thanks for the book recommendation.

       Reply
7. 

   Terry Thomas, on January 19, 2011 at 1:37 pm said:

   Ellen:

   Great interview!

   I’m not intending to change the subject but I wondered who the Tijuana healer was that you mentioned about your representing earlier as an attorney in the introduction to this interview. Was it Dr Hulda Regehr Clark, who included the design of a frequency generating zapper in her book, “The Cure for all Diseases”, for a 9 volt battery?

   This was a great interview. It seems the Bell has no use for government. That is understandable with as it seems politicians seem to represent only the lobbyist instead of their constituents.

   I’d have a wisecrack about lawyers and politicians at this point but my hero in this case was and is a lawyer:?)

   Terry Thomas

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     Terry Thomas, on January 22, 2011 at 7:40 am said:

     Ellen:
     Never mind.
     I found that it was about Jimmy Keller’s case that you mentioned at the beginning of the interview in recalling your past experiences.
     Thanks anyway.
     Again, I cheer your skill & proficiency in the interview. Though, you had to slap your head in amazement at some of the questions:).
     terry p

     Reply
8. 

   gary3340, on January 23, 2011 at 12:06 pm said:

   state banks that issue each states own notes is the simple answer to the financial crisis that WILL absolutely get progressively worse as the feds debt note dollar becomes exponentially more worthless in the next 2 years as its value goes to zero..
   it will be up to each states treasurer to insert the correct amount of new money into each states economies..not to much and not to little currency to keep the states economies running smoothly making money work for us,
   and no more federal reserve debt notes that keep us as enslaved by the worlds international banksters /non-federal reserve money counterfeiting corporation
   just as the 8,000+ other paper fiat currencies in the history of the planet..
   do you really believe inflation will suddenly stop after the last 98 years of non-stop inflation which has left the debt note dollar with the buying power of 2 cents now in 2011,
   compared to the 1913 dollar?
   1913…the first year of the private non-federal no-reserve corporation in charge of our currency..
   this plan for a new money system IS the answer to America’s financial crisis and it WILL absolutely work..
   N.Dakota is doing it right now this minute and they have an incredible 3% unemployment rate..nuff said..
   all the 50 states must do is issue their own currency at 2% interest..
   all the interest payments are returned into each states treasury/coffer to pay all the states bills..the currency does not have to be backed by anything..in fact its better if its not backed by gold as the banksters own must of the worlds gold and the worlds banksters would be back in power in no time flat..we simply let each of the 50 state governments issue the currency and we watch them like a hawk as the founding fathers told us repeatedly..
   inflation would disappear and be a thing of the past with a new state run honest money system not controlled by international foreign banksters..
   a dollar would buy a dollar worth of goods in 2011 and a dollar would buy the same amount of goods in 2050..just as a dollar in 1800 was worth the same as a dollar in 1912..112 years of the dollar and NO INFLATION !
   every state would soon see a currency /budget surplus like N.Dakota enjoys right now as they have their own state run money system and unemployment would virtually disappear as we bring ALL manufacturing and good paying jobs back to America where it belongs..
   we do not need one thing from the 3rd world..NOTHING
   we can legalize hemp and make over 5,000 quality products with it,
   including clothes,shoes and other high quality products Americans need and want, and we can grow ALL the food we need right here in the good ol USA!
   we can end ALL the phony horrible wars including the phony drug war and the phony war on terror..
   having to import food from China and other 3rd world countries is beyond insanity..
   we CAN take America back w/o any violence whatsoever..
   as soon as the police and military fully wake up to the truth about what is really happening in America and around the world, its all over for the NWO globalists destroying America’s economic engine by design
   as soon as the 50 state notes begin to filter into the commerce system, [btw..the state notes will be accepted in all 50 states..having 50 different state notes[money] accepted in all 50 states would make it virtually impossible for the PRIVATE international foreign banksters to take back control of our money/currency again…]
   we simply stop using the unconstitutional private federal reserve debt notes as the new state currency is put into the commerce system as the old debt notes are turned in for the new state notes and the 14 trillion dollar phony national debt is eliminated immediately.[you just can’t charge the populace interest on phony debt notes made out of nothing..its immoral and illegal
   the federal reserve will simply disappear all by itself as Americans stop using the feds debt notes..
   we don’t need Congress to pass any law to eliminate the fed nor the President to sign an executive order to eliminate/abolish it either.. the fed is actually irrelevant in this situation as the 50 states have the upper hand over the federal government per the constitution!
   if N.Dakota can issue their own currency,then you know the other 49 states can do the same!
   prosperity will return to America in spades as small business will be able to compete with the mega corporations and 3rd world labor again
   temp tariffs will need to be put in place until we get our economy going again..
   under the present money system, America can not return to prosperity and can not create good new jobs ..its impossible [by design]

   Reply

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